A Simple & Homely Wedding in Milan: Roberto & Cherie

February 1, 2012 in Wedding | 8 comments

Italian Roberto & Chinese Cherie planned their Milan wedding from other sides of the world, “Until 2 months before the wedding, we had lived in 2 different countries (Hong Kong and UK) for 16 months, ” Cherie told me. “I had taken a sabbatical to spend time with my family in Hong Kong and the majority of our ideas exchange and planning was done on email or Skype. We found the organising super boring, couldn’t wait to party on the day!”

The couple met in London and so filmed their Save the Date video in the city, and they actually ended up having two weddings (the Italian one pictured and another in Hpng Kong) so it really was a multicultural, multinational affair!

“We decided on some values for our weddings, they were ‘simple’, ‘vintage’, ‘homely’ and most of all ‘fun’, the bride continued. “Our rule-of-thumb was, ‘if nobody would remember it in 2-3 years time, then don’t sweat over it.’ Therefore things like flowers, decorations and cake were at the bottom of our list of importance. We were so overwhelmed by the number of friends and families that flew over to Italy just for us so we wanted to make the whole weekend super fun. They were at the top of our priority list!”

“What you remember from an event is usually the atmosphere, special moments and people that you spend time with, so we made sure it was very relaxed with plenty of time and opportunity to mingle, created some crazy signature moments e.g. our pretentious celebrity red carpet type entrance to the reception in Muse’s ‘Feeling Good’ and got everyone to sing a few songs before dancing!  The rock star personalities were all coming out!”

“However simplicity does take effort,” she concluded. “It is often easier to just do what the world says you should do for weddings, e.g. the bride’s name must come first, the cake must look amazing, you have to do an impeccable first dance etc.  But there is no such thing as you ‘should’ or you ‘must’!  If it’s not important, produces minimal impact or easily forgotten, just scrap it. That’s what we did. Traditions can be changed so focus on a few things that matter to you and make them memorable.”

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Affordable Bridesmaids Dresses & Accessories from Girls of Elegance

January 31, 2012 in Under The Spotlight | 11 comments

Launched in 2004, Girls of Elegance are one of the UK’s leading suppliers of affordable bridesmaid dresses, wedding shoes and bridal accessories. After trading solely online for the past 8 years, in August last year they launched their first dedicated wedding shoe showroom in Dorset, and this February will see them taking Charlotte Balbier wedding gowns into their boutique.

Girls of Elegance pride themselves in the extensive range for bridesmaids, including dresses of all shapes and colours - all for under £100! My favourite has got to be this adorable polkadot dress which comes in at amazing £74.99 and is available in 6 colours. I love it so much in fact that I just nabbed it myself in the mint colour! I love the look of bridesmaids in the same dress but different colours, and wouldn’t this one just be perfect for a country garden themed wedding?

FYI the stock on this particular dress is limited so buy now to avoid missing out!

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A Black & White, Boutique Hotel Wedding: Abbi & Jools

January 31, 2012 in British Brides, Wedding | 9 comments

After a cliff top proposal, Abbi & Jools, who met while working at the Cadbury factory, planned their 5* boutique wedding at The Hempel Hotel, London.

“Jools and I met 8 years ago, when we both started working for Cadbury. Clearly, having a Cadbury chocolate/sweetie bar at the wedding was obligatory!” Abbi explained. “We got engaged in Australia, on a cliff top on the Great Ocean Road, while sitting on a bench and eating some delicious cake. When Jools said ‘I’ve got a question to ask you’, I replied ‘Do you want the rest of my cake?’ Usually he would have jumped at the opportunity – but instead went down on one knee… to which I responded ‘oh my God oh my God oh my God… where shall I put the cake?’ I put it on the ground. It was fine. I ate it later.”

“Our wedding day was the best day of my life. I thought I would be nervous, and I was worried I would cry (I’m a bit of a blubber at other people’s weddings), but as soon as I started walking down the aisle with my Dad, I couldn’t wipe the grin off my face. I just wanted to throw my arms around Jools – but when I reached the front and tried to kiss him, he refused because we weren’t married yet! By the end of our wedding day, my face was aching with grinning so much. When we got our beautiful wedding photos back, you can see the exact expression I was pulling all day!”

“I’m not terribly creative, but I did a little bit of DIY,” Abbi continued. “I made all the name tags we used for place settings. My favourite wedding purchse may have been the heart-shaped hole punch I used before tying on the ribbons. At dinner, I went round pointing out the heart shaped holes to everyone. No one else had noticed. I did. They made me happy.”

“Jools and I have been lucky enough to be invited to a LOT of friends’ weddings – about 19 in the past few years.” she concluded. “I’ve been bridesmaid at 5, witness at 2, a reader at one, photographer at one… basically, we’re wedding pros! We’ve been to all different types – churches, castles, country houses, barns, hotels…but mostly fairly traditional. We just wanted ours to be a bit different – so we decided on a city chic, boutique hotel, slightly quirky feel. Basically, we just wanted it to be a really fun party with great food, great booze and great music!”

“Colour-scheme wise, I guess it was black and white with flashes of colour. The guests were all in black tie, the venue was fairly monochrome, the bridesmaids dresses were all different versions of the little black dress… and then there was my dress. The most fun dress in the world. God I love that dress. Clearly I couldn’t tell Jools about the dress beforehand, but I just knew it was perfect for the feel we were going for. The 50s style, the black and white…. Wearing it blew me away – and everyone else fell over themselves to say how much they loved it. I felt like a movie star. And it was great to dance and spin around in, unlike the more traditional, restrictive long dresses I tried on. Plus it gave me a genuine excuse (as if I needed one) to buy some Christian Louboutins… you could see my feet! I was nervous that my outfit would look too OTT, that Jools would fall about laughing when he saw me – but it was the best decision I ever made.”

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A Rock n Roll Shoot & Iron Fist Ruby Slippers: Cat & Louis

January 31, 2012 in Bridal Shoot/Trash The Dress | 25 comments

It started with those ruby slippers. When wedding photographer  Kat Forsyth first laid eyes on the Iron Fist beauties, she knew she had to do a photo shoot styled around them.

“I’m not even a shoe girl, and I hardly ever wear heels, but hot damn, I wanted everything on the Iron Fist website,” Kat wrote. “I couldn’t get the ruby slippers out of my head, so a few weeks later I popped into a shop to see them in person. Well, the only pair left was the display pair, and they were one size too small for me. But they were On Sale. On Sale for one fifth of the original price! So in order to justify the purchase, I decided I would buy them to use in a shoot one day. Photographing them’s just as good as wearing them, right? In fact, better, because it’d be more comfy!”

“So I bought the shoes – and another pair which actually do fit me, and were also on sale (score!) – and left the store resolving to do a shoot based around them. Which I planned in the back of my head for ages, trying to get past the craziness that was last year and the first portion of this year, and then trying to find a dress, and a venue, and props, and a male model…”

“Finally we put it all together; I shot it last month, and here it is. My models were Cat and Louis, who are both in bands – Cat is the lead singer in a Rock n Roll Band, and Louis is the drummer for two bands! They even brought along a few props to play with.”

“The dress was made by Carla from Estienne Carla Photography, who is not only a crazy talented photographer, but an epic dress designer (Carla, you ROCK!!), and the makeup was done by the most fabulous makeup artist, Sam Scaife of Lashline, whom I love and adore! The coke can bouquet was made by an awesome guy named Christopher, who sits on the pavement outside the Woolworth’s on First Avenue Linden, selling his crafts, and the shoes were mine…all mine.”

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A Shamanic Wedding Ceremony in Guatemala: Daniela & Mark

January 30, 2012 in Wedding | 18 comments

How utterly beautiful is today’s real wedding? This is the kind of wedding that makes my heart sing – no fuss, no details, no over-the-top-bridezilla-stresses – just the most important thing…love.

The bride, Daniela, told me all about their special day. “There were only the two of us at the ceremony, the lady who married us, the lady who owned the land and our photographer. The ceremony itself lasted about 1.5 hrs and consisted of several parts: lighting the fire, being cleansed with special leaves and incense, hearing the 20 nahuales of the Mayan Calendar being read out, telling each other our love and exchanging our rings, being wrapped in a green shawl which represented Gaia. We began and ended the ceremony with chocolate, a block of which was also burned in the fire. Chocolate is sacred in Mayan culture.”

“We chose to get married in Guatemala as we got engaged there last year and it’s our favourite country. Neither of us knew much about Mayan beliefs, but after doing some research we decided to tie the knot in a Mayan fire ceremony because we felt like we should honour the traditions of our chosen wedding location. Organising everything was extremely easy – we found our photographer via Tripadvisor and our shaman, the amazing Aum Rak , via a quick Google search. She then got us in touch with Terri, the owner of a local hotel in Lake Atitlan who offered us to get married on her land.”

“I knew that I wanted to wear a vintage (or vintage-looking) dress and briefly considered one by BHLDN, but it would have been almost criminal to shove such an expensive dress into my backpack for 3 weeks (we were travelling through Mexico and other locations in Guatemala before the wedding). So I chose a Gunne Sax dress instead, which I could just roll up and carry around with me without it getting creased. As for shoes, they had to be Swedish clogs!”

“Some might think we’re bonkers for getting married in this way,” she concluded, “but our parents fully understood, and for us it couldn’t have been more perfect or more emotional and meaningful (I was crying so much throughout the ceremony!). We had such a relaxed, blissful day as we didn’t have to worry about anything. No guests, no reception, no cake, no make-up or hair appointments… It was completely stress-free! Afterwards we had our honeymoon in the middle of the jungle in Honduras!”

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The Inspirations: La Carmina

February 8, 2012 in Green Room | 2 comments

Reading the work of other bloggers is so important to me. I spend at least an hour a day (and often more!) catching up with my favourite non-wedding bloggers. I find they really help me stay inspired and not get trapped in the ’wedding industry bubble’. It’s nice to feel a part of the ‘real world’ (however wacky!) too…otherwise I’d go mental. These other bloggers help me to keep what I do fresh and therefore enables my blogging to be more rounded – so thank you non-wedding bloggers!

This week I wanted to introduce you to another of my favourites, La Carmina.

A published author and TV presenter,  La Carmina has managed to use the platform of her blog to forge an impressive career out of her passion for alternative fashion and wacky subcultures. Now if that’s not seriously inspiring I don’t know what is!

Hey La Carmina, it’s fabulous to finally have you on the pages of Rock n Roll Bride! For those readers who, unlike me, haven’t online-stalked you for the past three years, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

I’m a “spooky-cute” travel and fashion blogger, with a passion for alternative and Gothic subcultures. I was born in Vancouver, Canada and studied at Columbia University and Yale Law, but fell in love with blogging and jumped on this path instead. It’s led to life-changing opportunities: I’m now the author of 3 books — including Cute Yummy Time (Penguin) and Crazy, Wacky Theme Restaurants: Tokyo (Random House) — and a journalist for CNN, Huffington Post, AOL. My “First Mate” and I started a TV fixing, hosting and coolhunting firm, called ”La Carmina & The Pirates.”

I also host my own web series for Huffington Post, and am constantly traveling for appearances and work (last year, I was in Hong Kong, Macau, Italy, LA, Mexico and more). Right now, my focus is on television presenting; my credits include The Today Show, Travel Channel, NHK Japan, Fuel/Discovery/National Geographic, Food Network, Pepsi, Sony, Norway TV, CNN. All my TV clips are here.

Where did the name ‘La Carmina’ come from?

I wrote a blog post that explains how the name La Carmina came about. You can read it here.

In a nutshell, it is a nickname derived from my real name (Carmen), and a tribute to La Camilla (Army of Lovers), La Carlotta (Phantom of the Opera) and La Casati: flamboyant, eccentric fashion divas.

You blog about alternative fashion and culture, with particular focus on Japan. What made you get into, and fall in love with, Japanese culture?

Since my family is from Asia, we often traveled to Japan when I was young. In my early teens, I visited Harajuku and my mind was blown open by the vibrant street fashion and culture – Jrock, Goth Lolita, Punk. This was the initial spark that led to where I am today. I continue to be fascinated by the connections between alternative fashion, music and subcultures.

When and why did you decide to start a blog and was it a conscious career decision at the time?

I first heard of blogs around 2004-5. When I started mine in September 2007, I was at Yale Law School, but felt frustrated by the lack of a creative outlet. Blogging was a perfect fit: it combined photography, writing, and interaction — allowing me to share my love of dark fashion and subcultures.

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Stack ‘em High, Sell ‘em Cheap

February 7, 2012 in Green Room | 7 comments

If you’re anything like me, walking into your favourite store with the notion of treating yourself is a regular occurrence. The feeling of excitement is even more heightened when it’s a store I can’t really afford, but I know I can get one tiny little thing which will make me feel extravagant (my favourite is Vivienne Westwood on Conduit St by the way, what’s yours?)

Invariably though, its not the designer frocks and overpriced couture selection I’m drawn to, its the more disposable and affordable items – I’m talking perfume, costume jewellery and if you’re a Vivienne Westwood fiend like me, the Melissa shoes. Doesn’t it feel great to be handed over that fancy designer carrier bag knowing that the item inside (no matter how small) is yours!?

After reading this story, where do you think Vivienne Westwood makes the majority of her money? It’s not the £3000 dresses or one-of-a-kind couture creations, its the cheap(er) stuff that we can all, just about, afford. We buy these items, not because they are in anyway better than a high street counterpart, but because we buy into the brand. We want a piece of our favourite designer in our lives and now, we can afford it. I think the popularity of the Lady Dragon Melissa shoes is proof enough right?!

Photography Credit: Flyinghorse Photography (full wedding here)

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How to Avoid Burn-Out: A Guest Post by Chanelle Segerius-Bruce

February 3, 2012 in Green Room, Guest Posts | 21 comments

I arrived at the party, having had my hair blow dried and a coral pink ruffled dress picked out especially for the occasion. The doorman walked up to my black cab, opened the door and welcomed me to The Dorchester. I made my way up to the very top floor in the opulently decorated elevator and, after having my coat taken care of, was offered a glass of bubbly. I was to brush shoulders with the ‘Best of British’ that evening. This was a party hosted by none other than Mark Niemeirko, the UK’s top wedding planner, in honor of Darcy Miller the editor of Martha Stewart Weddings. A selection of the best UK bloggers where there too, including the lovely Kat of course, as well as florists, hair & make-up artists and best of all the big name bridal designers.

This is networking at it’s finest ladies and gentlemen!

How did I get here? I can tell you that it wasn’t just down to spending every waking moment in front of my computer. While, of course, I’ve worked hard to get here, one of the best things I did for myself and my business last year was to not do everything myself.

In the first two years of my wedding photography business I did absolutely everything myself. I found it hard to let go. I felt as though I was the only person who could ever possibly work on my on RAW files. I thought nobody else would ever be able to design an album for me – even if I guided them through the process. I worked as a high end retoucher for years and it has only recently dawned on me that those fashion photographers would not be where they are now if they had to sit and work on each and every image that they have shot themselves! Do you think Mario Testino would have the time to travel the world, shooting front covers for Anna Wintour and worldwide advertising campaigns if he was shackled to his desk with a pen and Wacom tablet permanently attached to the end of his arm? I think not. You have to have the time to network and meet people in the industry in person and not just from the safety net of a twitter handle.

I eluded to the topic of avoiding burn out in my round up/end of year blog post. 2011 was my third full year in business as a photographer and now, at the start of 2012, I feel very happy with where I am with my price point and how I am progressing my business. I would like to share some of what I’ve done to get here with you all. I hope my advice can span any business and that this article is not only useful for photographers, however most of my examples in this piece are specific to what I did in my wedding photography business.

My basic lesson is this: life is short and working into the wee hours of the night, not having a break and feeling overwhelmed is why people ‘burn-out’ or loose their passion for something they once loved. After all most people start their own businesses to get away from working in a job that stresses them out!

“If you live each day as if it was your last, someday you’ll most certainly be right” - Steve Jobs

Outsourcing

Begin with the easy things and then work towards the ones that are harder to let go of.

Accounting
Firstly I don’t do well with numbers, so outsourcing my accounting was a no brainer and the first thing I did back in my freelance retouching days. No way was I going to sit down and fill in a tax return or enter a bunch of receipts and expenses into Excel (which is not a program I am familiar with – my background is graphic design and I just never had the need to learn it). I used to hand over a big bundle of paperwork to my poor accountant and he had to sift though everything and make sense of it all. However now file everything myself into subsections for each type of expense (i.e. album printing, travel, consumables, gear etc etc).

Bookkeeping
The second thing I outsourced was bookkeeping. I know I need to have a running total of my turnover in order to keep an eye on the VAT threshold. Remember to keep in mind that if you go over the threshold in any 12 month period (not just the tax tear April to April) that you have to start charging your clients 20% VAT. This includes future wedding clients, even if they booked you before you had to go VAT registered! It is super important to plan for this.

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The Inspirations: Nubby Twiglet

February 1, 2012 in Green Room | 15 comments

I discovered Nubby Twiglet around the same time as stumbled across Gala‘s blog. I fell in love with her enviable personal style, and like any good internet stalker I loved her daily blog updates – from the clothes she wore to the pretty fonts she designed. Then in 2010, when I decided to rebrand Rock n Roll Bride, I knew there was only one graphic designer I wanted to work with. Luckily for me she was able to squeeze me into her crazy-busy schedule and the rest, as they say, is history!

Since my logo and website overhaul we’ve also worked together on my media pack as well as Rock n Roll Bride Magazine…and yes, we are working on issue two right now (sneak peek at the end of this interview). AND in just 3 weeks time she, Gala and I just happen to be in Las Vegas at the same time so we’re going to hang out in (OMG) actual real life…AND do a photo shoot together (squeeee!)

Jesus, I must get my fan-girlness in check before that happens…

Hey Nubby, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your business. What’s the ‘Nubby Twiglet story’?

Hello! I’m a graphic designer and blogger based in Portland, Oregon. My main focus is in branding but I am also very passionate about web and editorial design. I’ve been blogging since 2001 (back when Live Journal was all the rage!) and launched my personal blog in 2007. I am a self-proclaimed aesthetics junkie and have always been passionate about sharing the world around me with the hopes of inspiring others. The one defining characteristic readers usually notice right away is that I don’t make a clear division between my work, wardrobe and surroundings; it’s all visually interconnected to form a distinct lifestyle. This is the vision I share on my blog, which can be quickly summed up as “Design, Marketing and Style Magnified.”

What about your name? Where did ‘Nubby Twiglet’ come from and why did you decide to use a pseudonym online?

Nubby Twiglet originated from a combination of nicknames I had back in high school. It was a way to separate my online and offline lives when I started blogging 10+ years ago (at that time, people rarely used their real names online). My legal name is Shauna and I actually like it! But what happened almost instantaneously is that my online existence so closely mirrored my offline life and people couldn’t easily separate the two. When I began meeting people in person that I’d first known online, they referred to me as “Nubby” so I embraced it. It’s that simple!

You’ve managed to land yourself some pretty impressive design contracts - notably Solestruck and Forever 21.  How did those come about?

I was lucky that these connections came about quite organically. Forever 21 knew about my blog and contacted me directly about designing their blog and accompanying logo a few years back. For being such a large company, they were incredibly friendly and open-minded, giving me nearly complete creative freedom. Solestruck is a Portland-based company and if you haven’t noticed, I am totally shoe-crazy. We’d known about each other for a long time and it was only a matter of time until we joined forces! They’re another company I love working with because they trust designers to do their thing and extend an amazing amount of creative freedom.

Advanced warning of a serious fan-girl gush right here…I have no words to describe how I felt when I first discovered your blog and saw your work. I love its bold and daring nature, the strong colours and your incredible use of fonts! When you first designed my logo for example, it was literally like you had gone inside my head and pulled out what I didn’t even know was there!

What inspires you, and how did you use this to develop your own design style?

Thank you! I’ve always been a very visually-driven person and even before I became a designer, I was always on the lookout for inspiration in fashion magazines and on the web. Really though, inspiration is all around us and this is partly why I carry a camera everywhere. Inspiration can strike at any moment, in the form of a menu or a subway map or a business card at your favorite boutique.

When I’m working with a new client, I first have them fill out a questionnaire and show me what inspires them. I also collect my own inspiration and include this in the initial presentation to make sure we’re on the same track. Every designer has their own process and mine has come out of years of trial and error. It’s definitely an ongoing, evolving process.

When and why did you decide to start a blog to support your graphic design work?

I started blogging in 2001 over on Live Journal because like many people in their early 20s, I felt the need to share my personal stories and surroundings. This was way before I became a designer but even back then, I’d say that my aesthetic vision was pretty clear. Having my own business was always very important to me (I actually presented Nubbytwiglet.com as my senior project when I majored in Business) and I knew that if I stayed consistent and kept pushing forward, all the pieces would fall into place.

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Pushing Boundaries with Website Design, Going Against the Grain & Making your Visitors Work a Little Harder…

January 31, 2012 in Green Room | 28 comments

Confession: I’ve been trying to write this article for a while, in fact ever since we launched The Green Room at the beginning of the month. However I keep putting it off because it’s a difficult subject for me to actually to get my head around, and an even more taxing matter to try and explain my jumbled up thought process to you…In fact I’m 99% sure I will come across as a bit of a douche – hence the article-writing-hesitation.

I basically want to talk a little bit about web design, and specifically about making your website design different, but more than that – a challenge to the people visiting it and why I think this is a positive thing. This is probably a subject that, on first inspection, the majority of you will decide that I’m clearly mental, and be of the opinion that it’s best to make our websites as clear and easy for visitors (and potential clients) to navigate as possible. Well maybe yes, however let me explain why I’m teetering on the other side of the fence right now…

Image Credit: Braid Creative

When we came up with the The Green Room concept, specifically the sliiiide function, I was initially dubious. I’d never seen another blog using a horizontal navigation within a relatively standard blog format and I was worried that people wouldn’t ‘get it’.

Within the first week or so of the launch I was being asked the same questions over and over by people struggling to figure out the functionality of the sliding tab. Whilst I could have easily got annoyed and/or spent 23 hours a day explaining and re-explaining how to make the damn thing slide to everyone that asked, for the most part, I decided to let people figure it out for themselves.

Weirdly I was actually kind of pleased that some people couldn’t work the slide function out. It sounds very unorthodox, but I liked the fact that entering The Green Room was a challenge to some people and it really didn’t bother me if some people gave up and couldn’t get it. Why? Well first of all, it was an experiment. We didn’t know if people would even like the concept of a wedding blog simultaneously blogging about business stuff, and if it did fail, I was actually OK with it (I’d just go back to having much less writing to do!)

Also, the people that didn’t ‘get in the room’ failed a pretty simple intelligence test (and one that only really required people to take a little time and have a play around if they couldn’t figure it out right away) and in many ways I think the people who couldn’t be bothered to make that little effort don’t deserve all the amazing free business advice that’s hidden within this secret room of ours!

I spoke to a number of my industry friends about this matter, in particular wedding photographer Lisa Devlin who went through a similar thing when she re-branded her website two years ago. She purposely wanted to make the design different to all the other wedding photographers out there, not only to make her stand out from her competitors and make her website memorable to brides who will potentially looking at a whole bunch of wedding photographers at the same time, but also in order to set up a bit of a filter. She explains,

“Two years ago, I decided to overhaul my business including re-branding to a look that I felt reflected both me and my work. I also set out to change the website. I’ve have had a website for my wedding photography business since 2000 and apart from some tweaks along the way and a colour change, it had remained in its original format since then. By 2008 it was doing nothing to help me stand out from the crowd.”

“After meeting with some web developers who said my initial ideas wouldn’t be possible, I found Michael at This is Deliberate whose portfolio was really creative. My big idea was that when you arrived at the site, it was a collection of squares with no visible text apart from the logo. My previous site had a fair amount of text but from the questions I was getting, it was obvious it wasn’t getting read much. I wanted the images to do the talking but was told that you needed an obvious navigation bar. However Michael ran with the idea that it could be done away with. I also wanted the blog to be an integral part of the site. The blog is the bit which gets updated the most and I’m not sure if going forward people will have static sites now that blogging has progressed so much. It was obvious after looking at some existing templates, that my site was going to have to be built from scratch but as I was after something innovative, this was a cost I was prepared to pay. Sadly there is so much blatant copying that goes on in our industry that I thought it would be no bad thing to create a site that would be difficult to emulate and obvious if someone had done so.”

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About The Green Room

The Green Room is the backstage area of Rock n Roll Bride, a quiet place to read about and discuss all things related to running your own wedding-related business.

I strongly believe that the most important thing in any business is being your own person, standing out, having a different outlook or opinion and giving your clients a reason to invest in you. This is what I want to achieve with The Green Room - to give you a place to figure out your personal path in a non-judgmental and friendly space.

Each week we'll discuss topics related to running your own business as well as read interviews with some of the most inspirational people I know.

So sit down, grab a cup of coffee and lets muddle our way through together!

Find out more...